Letter 10
Dear Mehmet:
Sorry for being mute for some time. Work plus the holidays were an especially hectic time. Now it's a bit normal again.
Lots of things are happening or happened since you last emailed me. Anyway, the Ozur Diliyorum campaign on one side and the book about Talaat by Bardakci that I just got kept me busy. I have just started reading it and I haven't yet formulated any ideas about it. Perhaps I will in a couple of weeks.
So what are you up to? I am just starting to "market" our blog. Let's see what the reactions will be. Remember you told me in one email that the issue of Gul's mother being Armenian will explode one day? Well, it did happen as you said! What do you think about that?
Let's concentrate on the things that are happening nowadays in Turkey, Armenia and the Diaspora vis-à-vis the 1915-1923 period. I included the 1918-1923 period here, because there are lots of events that happened after the Mudros Armistice. Beside the war with Greece and the Izmir event, the test tube for Kemal in his struggle against the French and the establishment of the Turkish Republic stared in Marash in January of 1921. Marash is where my ancestors come from, you know? So 1921 has a special implication for me.
Do write to me about your ideas. I will start adding new correspondence to the blog as it goes.
Best Regards,
Garabet K Moumdjian
Answer to letter 10
Hello Dear Garo,
It is nice to hear from you. I heard about Bardakci's latest book, but I have not read it. Please let me know your ideas about his book and Talaat's black paper after formulating your opinions.
Regarding President Gul, it is really a shame for this political party (CHP) who defines itself as "social democrat" to blame a man as being Armenian. I really can not understand this party. My Armenian Muslim colleague told me that Gul can be an Armenian. He also told me (it is really a surprise) that Alparslan Turkeş, founder of MHP (Nationalist Action Party) and the most prominent Turkish nationalist and ex military who was active in the coup d'état of 1960, is an Armenian from Kayseri, Talas. I had heard several rumors about his ethnic origin but I had not believed it, since the origin of the rumors were his opponents. We have many Armenians in Turkey. As I said earlier all Turks (true ethnic Turks) should have some Armenian and Greek (indeed Rum, the mixture of ancient Anatolian peoples, Romans and Greeks), Slavic and Mediterranean blood to some extent. Of course we have still people having physical features of a real Turk (Oghuz tribe) with slanting eyes, elliptical or global faces, few hair on their bodies and faces (no beard on their cheeks) etc. In general they come from remote parts of Anatolia and small villages that did not have access to other cities and thus the opportunity to partake in the slave business of antiquity.
Regarding the Alevi population of Anatolia, we have several different types of Alevi beliefs. One of them, which is really close to Christianity in some aspects, has several similarities with Christianity: The Trinity of Ali, Muhammed and Allah, use of vine and bread in rituals, excommunication...I have a theory about these similarities: These Alevis have some kind of interaction with Armenians. In general these kind of similarities have two reasons:
1. Conversion by force: People who were converted by force continue to live their old religion within the codes and meanings of the new religion.
2. Dervishes (especially heterodox ones) who tried to convert local Christians voluntarily used some symbols and rituals of Christianity in order to attract Christians to a new religion. This occurred during the Christianization of Western and Northern Europe. The similarity between St. Nicolas with one of the gods of the Germans; adoption of some pagan feasts and filling them with Christian meanings.
So this type of Alevis may be Armenians converted in different ways and in different periods. Some of them must have been converted by Iranian Turkic states like the Akkoyunlu, the Karakoyunlu, the Safevids etc. Because there is a deep effect of Shii belief mixed with Christian...
Furthermore, it seems that besides our president, our prime minister, Receb Tayyip Erdogan, descends from a Greek Muslim family from Potamia [Potamianos], called Rize today. He is a mixture of Georgian and Greek. There are rumors also about Turkey’s head of General Staff's, Sabetaist origin. As you see, we do not have Turk in the most critical points…
Nowadays, I am doing some research about "Turkish identity in medieval era". I am reading old Ottoman and Seljuk historians. It is really interesting to see how they define a Turk. In fact they do not define him and the term used is really vague. Neither Seljuk nor Ottomans (or other Beyliks) define themselves as Turk. Turk sometimes has a pejorative meaning. For example, in Fatih laws (Mehmet II, the conqueror) it is written: "Every man, Turk or urban (şehirli) who drinks alcohol should be beaten by a stick." In this provision Turk should mean villager and/or nomad. In another provisions of the same law, there is an account: While wondering in his palace, Fatih came across some janissaries and he saluted them. The janissaries replied to him by "Aleykumselam Muhammed Beşe (distorted version of Pasha)." Hearing this, the sultan was angry (because he is the sultan not a pasha) and he goes to his Sadrazam Mahmut Pasha and says to him: "These janissaries can not speak Turkish; they should learn Turkish and therefore we shall give them to Turks, so that they learn Turkish". In this account of the same law the meaning of Turk is Turkish speaking people. It has some ethnic implications.
I read some historians and an autobiography of Ottomans from 16th-17th centuries. All of them contain the term Turk. But all of them were the dialogues of Europeans or North Africans among themselves...Westerners call Ottomans Turks. But none of these Ottoman writers define Ottomans directly as Turks. They prefer Ottoman, Musulman or even Rum (Rumi, meaning Roman)
I am now reading an old history book titled "History of Seljuk States" written by a Seljuk administrator who lived in the first half of 14th century. He used the term Turk for riots from Karaman and Karamanoglu Beylik. He says Muslim army (Seljuk army) beat "rebel and ferocious Turks"...
More research and reading should be done, but I have the impression that "Turk" is a term used by others to define "Turk"...and Ottomans were aware of this since they use this term just in the fictive dialogues of Christians or Arabs...
In Adana, Marash, Antep and Urfa during 1919 - 1921 there were atrocities among Armenians and Turk/Kurdish population of these cities. I really wonder exact numbers/figures about civilian loss of both parties in this period. Have you ever seen Marash?
I hope the marketing of our blog will be successful, because Turks and Armenians really need these kind of platforms.
My best regards
Mehmet
Tuesday, January 6, 2009
CORRESPONDENCE 8
Letter 8
Dear Garo,
I need your comments and knowledge on the report written by the first Prime Minister of the 1st Democratic Republic of Armenia, Mr. [Hovhannes] Katchaznouni. This is the critical report about the ARF [General] Congress of 1923.
Nowadays a Turkish Nationalist and historian Mehmet Perinçek promotes this report in order to justify all the events that happened during WWI. He claims that he is the first person who found the real Russian version of the booklet in the Russian archives.
Please note that Perinçek is one of those "ulusalcı" [popular, populist] people, a kind of Neo-Kemalist secular movement (and even anti-religion) regarding religious politics, fascist towards ethnic and social minorities, militarist in foreign policy and socialist in economics. He is a relative of Doğu Perinçek, the ex Maoist, and Neo-Kemalist, the current leader of the Turkish Labor Party.
Regards
Mehmet
Answer to Letter 8
Dear Mehmet:
I have read Katchaznuni's book. There have been rumors since the beginning that he never wrote it. I think he did though. But the problem with Katchaznuni is that he wrote the pamphlet after he was ousted from the ARF. That makes it a biased work. Since if he had written it while still in and was ousted accordingly, it would have been a different issue. Anyway, who didn't make mistakes during an event as big as WWI? It's a point to ponder on!
Best Regards,
Garabet K Moumdjian
Answer back… Letter 9
Dear Garo,
I also took and read the booklet. You are right. He wrote the book after the Bolshevik victory in Armenia. If Tashnaks had still power over country, he would not be so critical. But I think this does not make his report insignificant. His analysis on political games between Armenians, Georgians and Azerbaijanis within the Caucasus Federation [The SAIM] was really good.
By the way, I have another question: What do you think about TGNA [Turkish Grand National Assembly] and its politics towards Armenians during 1920 - 1923. Do you have any proof regarding massacres committed by Turks in this period? I have some bad memories of my maternal grand father regarding this issue. My maternal grand father was a private during the Greco-Turkish wars. As far as my grandfather told me, his father told him that after the Sakarya war, their army leadership ordered them verbally to kill Armenians and also told them that the order was TGNA. Unfortunately, after this order, they shot and killed an Armenian civilian whom they encountered on their path. My grand father told me that that was always an embarrassment for his father and he never forgot this shameful act. I really wonder if there was such an order coming from the TGNA, or was this an arbitrary decision by some undisciplined officers?
Sorry if I am wrong in my memories, but I am really annoyed and disgusted at the idea that the TGNA may have played a role in this tragedy...
Regards,
Mehmet
Dear Garo,
I need your comments and knowledge on the report written by the first Prime Minister of the 1st Democratic Republic of Armenia, Mr. [Hovhannes] Katchaznouni. This is the critical report about the ARF [General] Congress of 1923.
Nowadays a Turkish Nationalist and historian Mehmet Perinçek promotes this report in order to justify all the events that happened during WWI. He claims that he is the first person who found the real Russian version of the booklet in the Russian archives.
Please note that Perinçek is one of those "ulusalcı" [popular, populist] people, a kind of Neo-Kemalist secular movement (and even anti-religion) regarding religious politics, fascist towards ethnic and social minorities, militarist in foreign policy and socialist in economics. He is a relative of Doğu Perinçek, the ex Maoist, and Neo-Kemalist, the current leader of the Turkish Labor Party.
Regards
Mehmet
Answer to Letter 8
Dear Mehmet:
I have read Katchaznuni's book. There have been rumors since the beginning that he never wrote it. I think he did though. But the problem with Katchaznuni is that he wrote the pamphlet after he was ousted from the ARF. That makes it a biased work. Since if he had written it while still in and was ousted accordingly, it would have been a different issue. Anyway, who didn't make mistakes during an event as big as WWI? It's a point to ponder on!
Best Regards,
Garabet K Moumdjian
Answer back… Letter 9
Dear Garo,
I also took and read the booklet. You are right. He wrote the book after the Bolshevik victory in Armenia. If Tashnaks had still power over country, he would not be so critical. But I think this does not make his report insignificant. His analysis on political games between Armenians, Georgians and Azerbaijanis within the Caucasus Federation [The SAIM] was really good.
By the way, I have another question: What do you think about TGNA [Turkish Grand National Assembly] and its politics towards Armenians during 1920 - 1923. Do you have any proof regarding massacres committed by Turks in this period? I have some bad memories of my maternal grand father regarding this issue. My maternal grand father was a private during the Greco-Turkish wars. As far as my grandfather told me, his father told him that after the Sakarya war, their army leadership ordered them verbally to kill Armenians and also told them that the order was TGNA. Unfortunately, after this order, they shot and killed an Armenian civilian whom they encountered on their path. My grand father told me that that was always an embarrassment for his father and he never forgot this shameful act. I really wonder if there was such an order coming from the TGNA, or was this an arbitrary decision by some undisciplined officers?
Sorry if I am wrong in my memories, but I am really annoyed and disgusted at the idea that the TGNA may have played a role in this tragedy...
Regards,
Mehmet
Monday, November 24, 2008
CORRESPONDENCE 7
Letter 7
Dear Garabet,
I am ready to accept this, but with some conditions:
We have to avoid promoting any kind of discrimination, xenophobia, racism or fanaticism towards any kind of identity (ethnic, racial, religious, socioeconomic class, sex or age). We must be very careful on this issue. I see some blogs full of abusive language, insult and blind fanaticism where people coming from different roots are vomiting their angers, hate, and resentment towards each other: it is a kind of masturbation, and“pornography of hate”. So we must control messages which have this kind of content. Me and you, we must be moderator and on this blog people will have to get our approval to express their views. We should be open every opinion, political views unless they don't contain insult, hate or discriminative expression.
To prevent this we have to avoid overgeneralization while giving information. We have to be careful while using the names of identities as subject and object. For ex: "1.5 million Armenians were killed by Turks". This expression for a Turk is irritating, because every Turk in this period were not Armenian killer, and because almost none of Turks who will read our blog is Armenian killer. Instead we can say " (the number) Armenians were killed by some Turkish/Kurdish bandits, militia and Ottoman regular troops". We can discuss on the details during the creation of this blog, but I think overgeneralization make Turkish people angry and deaf towards Armenian issue. Another important point is, as I said earlier, “...we have to condemn all kind of crime committed by both some Armenians and Turks (and Kurdish), it will be much easier for Turks to admit the responsibility of their ancient governments. In case we accuse just Turks it will be both unfair and unreasonable.”
We should not forget Assyrians, Greeks and Muslim civilians killed, tortured or raped during this period. We should not forgot soldiers either, ordinary privates killed, wounded, taken captive during these wars. Most of them were poor peasants who did not have any idea for what reason they were fighting. All these people who were living together in a country governed by a state called the Ottoman State were victims of human greed and ferocity. If it is true almost 5 million Ottoman citizens (including 800,000 soldiers) were killed during this war. This is one of the greatest numbers of causalities per capita. We were victims of bad government, imperialism and real politic. We were victims of our intolerance, ignorance and egoism.
Best Regards,
Mehmet
ANSWER TO LETTER 7
Dear Mehmet:
You read my mind. I am an academician and would absolutely not want to go to a level as low as some hateful sites are. What I envision is a civil blog in all aspects of the word. Two persons, who are trying to find a common ground, despite the xenophobia surrounding the regarding the issue they are discussing. My aim is not to speak about the genocide as much as I want to show how two civil and polite people from both sides of a thorny issue can talk with and to each other. I want this to be a model for others to emulate.
Let's do this. You have the email that you sent me. Please go over the and do the editing you want and lets avoid the thorny issues that raise tensions. Rewrite them the way you see fit. I will do the same with mine. We can then exchange the writings and after agreeing on them creates the blog we envision. I will then have to work on promoting it through proper tech channels.
Let's see if our endeavor will create a kind of buzz that we both desire.
Best Regards,
Garabet
Dear Garabet,
I am ready to accept this, but with some conditions:
We have to avoid promoting any kind of discrimination, xenophobia, racism or fanaticism towards any kind of identity (ethnic, racial, religious, socioeconomic class, sex or age). We must be very careful on this issue. I see some blogs full of abusive language, insult and blind fanaticism where people coming from different roots are vomiting their angers, hate, and resentment towards each other: it is a kind of masturbation, and“pornography of hate”. So we must control messages which have this kind of content. Me and you, we must be moderator and on this blog people will have to get our approval to express their views. We should be open every opinion, political views unless they don't contain insult, hate or discriminative expression.
To prevent this we have to avoid overgeneralization while giving information. We have to be careful while using the names of identities as subject and object. For ex: "1.5 million Armenians were killed by Turks". This expression for a Turk is irritating, because every Turk in this period were not Armenian killer, and because almost none of Turks who will read our blog is Armenian killer. Instead we can say " (the number) Armenians were killed by some Turkish/Kurdish bandits, militia and Ottoman regular troops". We can discuss on the details during the creation of this blog, but I think overgeneralization make Turkish people angry and deaf towards Armenian issue. Another important point is, as I said earlier, “...we have to condemn all kind of crime committed by both some Armenians and Turks (and Kurdish), it will be much easier for Turks to admit the responsibility of their ancient governments. In case we accuse just Turks it will be both unfair and unreasonable.”
We should not forget Assyrians, Greeks and Muslim civilians killed, tortured or raped during this period. We should not forgot soldiers either, ordinary privates killed, wounded, taken captive during these wars. Most of them were poor peasants who did not have any idea for what reason they were fighting. All these people who were living together in a country governed by a state called the Ottoman State were victims of human greed and ferocity. If it is true almost 5 million Ottoman citizens (including 800,000 soldiers) were killed during this war. This is one of the greatest numbers of causalities per capita. We were victims of bad government, imperialism and real politic. We were victims of our intolerance, ignorance and egoism.
Best Regards,
Mehmet
ANSWER TO LETTER 7
Dear Mehmet:
You read my mind. I am an academician and would absolutely not want to go to a level as low as some hateful sites are. What I envision is a civil blog in all aspects of the word. Two persons, who are trying to find a common ground, despite the xenophobia surrounding the regarding the issue they are discussing. My aim is not to speak about the genocide as much as I want to show how two civil and polite people from both sides of a thorny issue can talk with and to each other. I want this to be a model for others to emulate.
Let's do this. You have the email that you sent me. Please go over the and do the editing you want and lets avoid the thorny issues that raise tensions. Rewrite them the way you see fit. I will do the same with mine. We can then exchange the writings and after agreeing on them creates the blog we envision. I will then have to work on promoting it through proper tech channels.
Let's see if our endeavor will create a kind of buzz that we both desire.
Best Regards,
Garabet
CORRESPONDENCE 6
Dear Garabet:
Improvement in Turco-Greek relations can be a good example for us, while starting confidence building and a peaceful dialogue between our people. Though it is not perfect, we overcame lots of bad stereotypes and biases via civil society dialogue. Cultural dialogue and tourism are other factors which enable us to understand each other.
10 years ago nobody was listening to Greek music in Turkey. There were no Greek restaurants in Ankara. Very few people were going to Greece for the holydays. There was not a single Turkish/Greek player in Turkish/Greek teams.
Now, Greek and Turkish songs are simultaneously popular in these two countries. There are almost 10 Greek restaurants in Ankara and maybe many more in Istanbul. Hundreds of thousands Turks and Greeks are choosing to visit their neighbors for the holydays. Turkish basketball/football players can play in Greek teams and Greeks can play in Turkish teams. We are making trade.
We should use art, sport, tourism and trade to overcome bad images. As you said, we should enhance dialogue between civil societies. We should form common forums for associations, unions and organize annual meetings in our countries. Diaspora should encourage each step of Turkey towards Armenia. Unfortunately passing genocide laws do not serve peace. This shouldn’t be the first step. Discussing 1915, the atrocities and crimes committed by Turkish/Armenian governments, militia and armies should be the last step. Unless Turks admit the role of their ex-government’s in this tragedy, these laws will have no sense. If we restore peace in our minds, it won't be important how we call this bad experiment: genocide, massacre or something else...
Regarding the last step, if historians condemn all kinds of crimes committed by both Armenians and Turks (and Kurds), it will be much easier for Turks to admit the responsibility of their ancient government. In case we accuse just Turks it will be both unfair and unreasonable.
These are my ideas.
Best regards,
Mehmet
ANSWER TO LETTER 6
Dear Mehmet:
Your points are well taken even though there might be points that I do not agree upon. However, I was thinking out loud and had this idea that we both can create an online blog and put our emails on it, so that others can read the kind of civil dialogue we are leading. I think it might be a good idea, but it’s just an idea and I won't do anything until I hear your opinion regarding it. Please inform me about what you think regarding this idea!
Best Regards,
Garabet
Improvement in Turco-Greek relations can be a good example for us, while starting confidence building and a peaceful dialogue between our people. Though it is not perfect, we overcame lots of bad stereotypes and biases via civil society dialogue. Cultural dialogue and tourism are other factors which enable us to understand each other.
10 years ago nobody was listening to Greek music in Turkey. There were no Greek restaurants in Ankara. Very few people were going to Greece for the holydays. There was not a single Turkish/Greek player in Turkish/Greek teams.
Now, Greek and Turkish songs are simultaneously popular in these two countries. There are almost 10 Greek restaurants in Ankara and maybe many more in Istanbul. Hundreds of thousands Turks and Greeks are choosing to visit their neighbors for the holydays. Turkish basketball/football players can play in Greek teams and Greeks can play in Turkish teams. We are making trade.
We should use art, sport, tourism and trade to overcome bad images. As you said, we should enhance dialogue between civil societies. We should form common forums for associations, unions and organize annual meetings in our countries. Diaspora should encourage each step of Turkey towards Armenia. Unfortunately passing genocide laws do not serve peace. This shouldn’t be the first step. Discussing 1915, the atrocities and crimes committed by Turkish/Armenian governments, militia and armies should be the last step. Unless Turks admit the role of their ex-government’s in this tragedy, these laws will have no sense. If we restore peace in our minds, it won't be important how we call this bad experiment: genocide, massacre or something else...
Regarding the last step, if historians condemn all kinds of crimes committed by both Armenians and Turks (and Kurds), it will be much easier for Turks to admit the responsibility of their ancient government. In case we accuse just Turks it will be both unfair and unreasonable.
These are my ideas.
Best regards,
Mehmet
ANSWER TO LETTER 6
Dear Mehmet:
Your points are well taken even though there might be points that I do not agree upon. However, I was thinking out loud and had this idea that we both can create an online blog and put our emails on it, so that others can read the kind of civil dialogue we are leading. I think it might be a good idea, but it’s just an idea and I won't do anything until I hear your opinion regarding it. Please inform me about what you think regarding this idea!
Best Regards,
Garabet
CORRESPONDENCE 5
Dear Garabet:
I agree with you: Peace and dialogue will form the spirit of our friendship. Indeed most of the Turks are ready to embrace Armenians but you know we have two big problems: The last decades of our common history, and the issue of Mountainous Karabakh...
Armenians have an image in their mind: "Brutal Turk" which is really hard to overcome. Turk means the killer of 1 million Armenians, a man who converts Christians by force, an intolerant barbarian, a psycho.
Turks also have the same image, because during World War I and 1920 some Armenian militias killed thousands of Turkish/Kurdish civilians. That's why in the Eastern part of Anatolia Armenian means a man who incarnates pregnant women, who rapes girls, and who kills babies.
To overcome these images we have to underline common features and beautiful moments shared by the two people. History is not a garden full of pink roses. If we look at the empty part of the glass, we can’t solve our problems. Personally, I think it will be very easy for these nations to love each other, only if we can overcome the bad imagery and transform it to neutral. Because we shared the same lands, our cultures influenced each other. We have almost the same cuisine, our taste is the same and because of intermarriages, conversion and rapes, our physical appearances are similar. We have similar auras. When I look at an Armenian or Greek or a native of the Balkans, I see the eyes of my grandmother, the hair of my lovely wife, the face of the best tailor in my district, the nose of my boss. We share the same aesthetics.
Christianity is not a foreigner for me. It is not as strange as Hinduism or the Shinto religion.
To overcome our troubles we should know that not only our nation, but all nations in Anatolia suffered a lot during the same period.
In the Ottoman Empire 2, 5 million Muslim civilians died during World War I because of illness, famine and assaults of Turkish, Armenian and Greek bandits, militia and regular troops. Many Armenians, Kurds and Turks were killed, tortured, and pillaged by the same bandits and militias used by the militarist government of Talaat, Enver and Cemal Pashas.
Many Armenians (Dink estimates them at 500,000) escaped from this massacre with the help of their Turkish/ Kurdish neighbors. Many Armenian babies and children (estimations of up to 200,000) were given to Muslim neighbors. Their Armenian parents thought they would come back, but most of them could not afford this and these babies and children were adopted by Turkish and Kurdish families, even though most of them were really very poor and had many children of their own. They did not frustrate their Armenian neighbors. Some Armenians became Muslim or were presented as Turk or Muslim with the help of their Muslim neighbors.
We have a 1 000 years of shared history. We should not focus just on the last decades of the 19th and the first decades of the 20th centuries for our mutual relations. The Ottoman Empire had many Armenian bureaucrats (some of them were Christian) and Armenians became rich using the advantages of being a subject of a state from Morocco to Austria to Iran and Russia to Yemen. Armenians took advantage of Timar System which condemned Turkish and Muslims peasants, civil servants and soldiers. They had a symbiotic relation with Turks in their villages and towns. Mimar Sinan, who is the biggest architect in Turkish history, is an Armenian renegade. We have many Armenian compositors of Turkish classical music (most favorable of them is Tatyos Effendi). We have Armenian blood, Armenians have Turkish blood. (Ironically the mother of Abdulhamit was Armenian).
We suffered a lot because of the Crusades. Crusaders did not kill only Muslims but they killed Armenians and Assyrians too, as they look like Muslims rather than Nordic or Latin Christians. Mongol and Timurid invasions are other tragedies in Anatolia that made us suffer a lot. These are our common sorrows!
Regarding North Karabakh... Turks have sympathy towards Azeris. They only know one side of the story. They watched some million Azeris being deported or escaping from Armenian violence in Nagorno Karabakh and the occupied parts of Azerbaijan, dismembered and burned bodies of Azeri civilians and babies. They even don’t know that in Nagorno Karabakh Armenians are the majority. Russia doesn’t want to solve this problem because Armenia is its ally in the area.
With help from Turkey Armenia can become a Switzerland in the Caucasus. The Armenian people are good traders if they would have a chance to expand to Europe via Turkey. One day the three republics in Caucasia will be members of EU and NATO. In Turkey there are many intellectuals who want to see these countries as members of EU. This is not a dream. This is our future.
Peace be with you,
Mehmet
ANSWER TO LETTER 5
Dear Mehmet:
This is exactly the kind of dialogue and discourse I was speaking about. I think we have come a long way from imagining each other as brutal murderers. It's about time that we change that image and use another one based on civil dialogue. The more this happens on the base level (between the two people) the more it will affect the upper governmental echelons. Politics is politics and we know how dirty a game it is. But there is the level of civil society in both countries, which I think can do a lot in terms of defusing the problems that politics brings to the issue.
In the case of Mountainous Karabagh there have been atrocities on both sides. If you remember the dislocations of Azeris from the area, I, on the other hand, can't forget the pogroms THAT preceeded that in Sumgayit and Baku, which were VERY ugly too. But these were the bangs of the destruction of the Soviet Union. We must still insist on dialogue.
Yes, our histories are intertwined with lots of similarities. The "Milleti Sadika" that Armenians were called, changed during the last decades of the 19th century. This was due to Western interference in the internal affairs of the Ottoman Empire. Even the corrective attempt that Armenians and Young Turks tried to implement didn't work. Even today, the world is rife with problems that are the result of direct Western interference (Africa, Middle East are good examples). They know how to play with our religions, sectarian sentiments to divide and rule.
Let's keep talking. It's good. I hope we will be able to do this face-to-face one day soon.
Best Regards,
Garabet
I agree with you: Peace and dialogue will form the spirit of our friendship. Indeed most of the Turks are ready to embrace Armenians but you know we have two big problems: The last decades of our common history, and the issue of Mountainous Karabakh...
Armenians have an image in their mind: "Brutal Turk" which is really hard to overcome. Turk means the killer of 1 million Armenians, a man who converts Christians by force, an intolerant barbarian, a psycho.
Turks also have the same image, because during World War I and 1920 some Armenian militias killed thousands of Turkish/Kurdish civilians. That's why in the Eastern part of Anatolia Armenian means a man who incarnates pregnant women, who rapes girls, and who kills babies.
To overcome these images we have to underline common features and beautiful moments shared by the two people. History is not a garden full of pink roses. If we look at the empty part of the glass, we can’t solve our problems. Personally, I think it will be very easy for these nations to love each other, only if we can overcome the bad imagery and transform it to neutral. Because we shared the same lands, our cultures influenced each other. We have almost the same cuisine, our taste is the same and because of intermarriages, conversion and rapes, our physical appearances are similar. We have similar auras. When I look at an Armenian or Greek or a native of the Balkans, I see the eyes of my grandmother, the hair of my lovely wife, the face of the best tailor in my district, the nose of my boss. We share the same aesthetics.
Christianity is not a foreigner for me. It is not as strange as Hinduism or the Shinto religion.
To overcome our troubles we should know that not only our nation, but all nations in Anatolia suffered a lot during the same period.
In the Ottoman Empire 2, 5 million Muslim civilians died during World War I because of illness, famine and assaults of Turkish, Armenian and Greek bandits, militia and regular troops. Many Armenians, Kurds and Turks were killed, tortured, and pillaged by the same bandits and militias used by the militarist government of Talaat, Enver and Cemal Pashas.
Many Armenians (Dink estimates them at 500,000) escaped from this massacre with the help of their Turkish/ Kurdish neighbors. Many Armenian babies and children (estimations of up to 200,000) were given to Muslim neighbors. Their Armenian parents thought they would come back, but most of them could not afford this and these babies and children were adopted by Turkish and Kurdish families, even though most of them were really very poor and had many children of their own. They did not frustrate their Armenian neighbors. Some Armenians became Muslim or were presented as Turk or Muslim with the help of their Muslim neighbors.
We have a 1 000 years of shared history. We should not focus just on the last decades of the 19th and the first decades of the 20th centuries for our mutual relations. The Ottoman Empire had many Armenian bureaucrats (some of them were Christian) and Armenians became rich using the advantages of being a subject of a state from Morocco to Austria to Iran and Russia to Yemen. Armenians took advantage of Timar System which condemned Turkish and Muslims peasants, civil servants and soldiers. They had a symbiotic relation with Turks in their villages and towns. Mimar Sinan, who is the biggest architect in Turkish history, is an Armenian renegade. We have many Armenian compositors of Turkish classical music (most favorable of them is Tatyos Effendi). We have Armenian blood, Armenians have Turkish blood. (Ironically the mother of Abdulhamit was Armenian).
We suffered a lot because of the Crusades. Crusaders did not kill only Muslims but they killed Armenians and Assyrians too, as they look like Muslims rather than Nordic or Latin Christians. Mongol and Timurid invasions are other tragedies in Anatolia that made us suffer a lot. These are our common sorrows!
Regarding North Karabakh... Turks have sympathy towards Azeris. They only know one side of the story. They watched some million Azeris being deported or escaping from Armenian violence in Nagorno Karabakh and the occupied parts of Azerbaijan, dismembered and burned bodies of Azeri civilians and babies. They even don’t know that in Nagorno Karabakh Armenians are the majority. Russia doesn’t want to solve this problem because Armenia is its ally in the area.
With help from Turkey Armenia can become a Switzerland in the Caucasus. The Armenian people are good traders if they would have a chance to expand to Europe via Turkey. One day the three republics in Caucasia will be members of EU and NATO. In Turkey there are many intellectuals who want to see these countries as members of EU. This is not a dream. This is our future.
Peace be with you,
Mehmet
ANSWER TO LETTER 5
Dear Mehmet:
This is exactly the kind of dialogue and discourse I was speaking about. I think we have come a long way from imagining each other as brutal murderers. It's about time that we change that image and use another one based on civil dialogue. The more this happens on the base level (between the two people) the more it will affect the upper governmental echelons. Politics is politics and we know how dirty a game it is. But there is the level of civil society in both countries, which I think can do a lot in terms of defusing the problems that politics brings to the issue.
In the case of Mountainous Karabagh there have been atrocities on both sides. If you remember the dislocations of Azeris from the area, I, on the other hand, can't forget the pogroms THAT preceeded that in Sumgayit and Baku, which were VERY ugly too. But these were the bangs of the destruction of the Soviet Union. We must still insist on dialogue.
Yes, our histories are intertwined with lots of similarities. The "Milleti Sadika" that Armenians were called, changed during the last decades of the 19th century. This was due to Western interference in the internal affairs of the Ottoman Empire. Even the corrective attempt that Armenians and Young Turks tried to implement didn't work. Even today, the world is rife with problems that are the result of direct Western interference (Africa, Middle East are good examples). They know how to play with our religions, sectarian sentiments to divide and rule.
Let's keep talking. It's good. I hope we will be able to do this face-to-face one day soon.
Best Regards,
Garabet
CORRESPONDENCE 4
Mehmet answered back saying that most if not all of those Armenians are Muslims now and that they are afraid of what nationalist Turks might do to them if they come forward. Mehmet also mentions that there are totally Armenian villages in areas populated by Alawis. He further mentions that a friend of his, from Erzerum, had told him that there are villages there who are totally Armenian in descent.
Sevgili Garabet,
Bu Müslüman Ermenilerin torunları şu anda zaten çoğunlukla Müslümanlığı kabul etmiş, Ermeniceyi ve Ermeni kültürünü unutmuştur buna rağmen Türkiye'de aşırı milliyetçilerin tepkisinden korkuyorlar bence. Fakat Türkiye'de sadece aşırı milliyetçiler yaşamıyor. Aşırı gruplar dışında halk onları olduğu gibi kabul edecektir. Aslında onların bu kimlikle ortaya çıkması milliyetçiliğin de belki rasyonelleşmesini sağlar.
Bir de Alevilerle aynı köylerde yaşayan Ermeniler var...Bazı Alevi köylerinde Ermeni ve Aleviler karışık yaşarken bazı köylerde sadece Ermeniler var ve kendilerini Alevi olarak tanımlıyorlar.
Ermenilerin hepsi 1915 den dolayı Müslüman olmamış. Yüzyıllar boyunca çeşitli nedenlerle İslam'a geçmiş olan Ermeniler var. Bir kısmı ekonomik nedenlerle bir kısmı baskı olduğu zamanlar baskıdan kurtulmak için bir kısmı da İslam'ı beğendiklerinden Müslüman oldular. Bizim bugün Türk dediğimiz ve anadili Türkçe olan insanların kanında Ermenilik ve Rumluk vardır..
Bugün bu konuyu Erzurumlu bir arkadaşımla konuştuk o bana "Bizim köy Türk köyüdür ama etrafındaki köylerin hepsi Ermeni Müslümanların köyü olduğunu söyledi. Onların da köyünde Türklerin sakladığı Ermeni nineler olmuş. O ihtiyarlar din değiştirmeden yaşamış ve ölmüşler. Tıpkı benim babamın köyündeki Gavur Nine gibi...
İşte böyle yine konuşuruz. Selametle
Mehmet
ANSWER TO LETTER 4
Dear Mehmet:
My Turkish keyboard is not working properly, so I am writing in English.
What you say is very interesting. I think the issue of those Muslim Armenians was something that Hrant Dink was following. As for myself, I don't have any problem in accepting Muslim Armenians (it wasn’t their choice but happened during a war). Lot's of Armenians think like me. It is good that finally people are able to express themselves in Turkey. This means that the country, despite the nationalists' endeavors, is slowly going toward real democracy. A democratic Turkey is a very important element in the Middle East. I think under AKP Turkey will become a leader in the region. I am for opening up of borders between Turkey and Armenia. We have differences and we can talk about them in a dialogue, not animosity. The world has come a long way and we are in the 21st centaury. I think you are one such person who thinks like me. It is people like us that have an important role in terms of educating our peoples to go to dialogue and understanding rather than fighting.
Sevgili Garabet,
Bu Müslüman Ermenilerin torunları şu anda zaten çoğunlukla Müslümanlığı kabul etmiş, Ermeniceyi ve Ermeni kültürünü unutmuştur buna rağmen Türkiye'de aşırı milliyetçilerin tepkisinden korkuyorlar bence. Fakat Türkiye'de sadece aşırı milliyetçiler yaşamıyor. Aşırı gruplar dışında halk onları olduğu gibi kabul edecektir. Aslında onların bu kimlikle ortaya çıkması milliyetçiliğin de belki rasyonelleşmesini sağlar.
Bir de Alevilerle aynı köylerde yaşayan Ermeniler var...Bazı Alevi köylerinde Ermeni ve Aleviler karışık yaşarken bazı köylerde sadece Ermeniler var ve kendilerini Alevi olarak tanımlıyorlar.
Ermenilerin hepsi 1915 den dolayı Müslüman olmamış. Yüzyıllar boyunca çeşitli nedenlerle İslam'a geçmiş olan Ermeniler var. Bir kısmı ekonomik nedenlerle bir kısmı baskı olduğu zamanlar baskıdan kurtulmak için bir kısmı da İslam'ı beğendiklerinden Müslüman oldular. Bizim bugün Türk dediğimiz ve anadili Türkçe olan insanların kanında Ermenilik ve Rumluk vardır..
Bugün bu konuyu Erzurumlu bir arkadaşımla konuştuk o bana "Bizim köy Türk köyüdür ama etrafındaki köylerin hepsi Ermeni Müslümanların köyü olduğunu söyledi. Onların da köyünde Türklerin sakladığı Ermeni nineler olmuş. O ihtiyarlar din değiştirmeden yaşamış ve ölmüşler. Tıpkı benim babamın köyündeki Gavur Nine gibi...
İşte böyle yine konuşuruz. Selametle
Mehmet
ANSWER TO LETTER 4
Dear Mehmet:
My Turkish keyboard is not working properly, so I am writing in English.
What you say is very interesting. I think the issue of those Muslim Armenians was something that Hrant Dink was following. As for myself, I don't have any problem in accepting Muslim Armenians (it wasn’t their choice but happened during a war). Lot's of Armenians think like me. It is good that finally people are able to express themselves in Turkey. This means that the country, despite the nationalists' endeavors, is slowly going toward real democracy. A democratic Turkey is a very important element in the Middle East. I think under AKP Turkey will become a leader in the region. I am for opening up of borders between Turkey and Armenia. We have differences and we can talk about them in a dialogue, not animosity. The world has come a long way and we are in the 21st centaury. I think you are one such person who thinks like me. It is people like us that have an important role in terms of educating our peoples to go to dialogue and understanding rather than fighting.
CORRESPONDENCE 3
Mehmet answered back saying that most if not all of those Armenians are Muslims now and that they are afraid of what nationalist Turks might do to them if they come forward. Mehmet also mentions that there are totally Armenian villages in areas populated by Alawis. He further mentions that a friend of his, from Erzerum, had told him that therte are villages there who are totally Armenian in descent.
Sevgili Garabet,
Bu Müslüman Ermenilerin torunları şu anda zaten çoğunlukla Müslümanlığı kabul etmiş, Ermeniceyi ve Ermeni kültürünü unutmuştur buna rağmen Türkiye'de aşırı milliyetçilerin tepkisinden korkuyorlar bence. Fakat Türkiye'de sadece aşırı milliyetçiler yaşamıyor. Aşırı gruplar dışında halk onları olduğu gibi kabul edecektir. Aslında onların bu kimlikle ortaya çıkması milliyetçiliğin de belki rasyonelleşmesini sağlar.
Bir de Alevilerle aynı köylerde yaşayan Ermeniler var...Bazı Alevi köylerinde Ermeni ve Aleviler karışık yaşarken bazı köylerde sadece Ermeniler var ve kendilerini Alevi olarak tanımlıyorlar.
Ermenilerin hepsi 1915 den dolayı Müslüman olmamış. Yüzyıllar boyunca çeşitli nedenlerle İslam'a geçmiş olan Ermeniler var. Bir kısmı ekonomik nedenlerle bir kısmı baskı olduğu zamanlar baskıdan kurtulmak için bir kısmı da İslam'ı beğendiklerinden Müslüman oldular. Bizim bugün Türk dediğimiz ve anadili Türkçe olan insanların kanında Ermenilik ve Rumluk vardır..
Bugün bu konuyu Erzurumlu bir arkadaşımla konuştuk o bana "Bizim köy Türk köyüdür ama etrafındaki köylerin hepsi Ermeni Müslümanların köyü olduğunu söyledi. Onların da köyünde Türklerin sakladığı Ermeni nineler olmuş. O ihtiyarlar din değiştirmeden yaşamış ve ölmüşler. Tıpkı benim babamın köyündeki Gavur Nine gibi...
İşte böyle yine konuşuruz. Selametle
Mehmet
Translation of bolded sections of the letter:
Those people who do not belong to extremist groups will accept them as they are...
And...
There are many Armenians who have converted to Islam or have become Muslims throughout the centuries for doifferent reasons. Some of these converted for economic reasons, while others did so in order to escape oppression when the state oppressed them. There are still others who became Muslims because they liked that religion...
ANSWER TO LETTER 3
Merhabalar Mehmet:
Bu mesele şımdik çok önemli dır. Aceba Türk halkı bunları açıka gelerseylerle kendilerini tüm vatandaş diye kabul edebilecek mı? Çok memnun oldum gönderdiğiniz 2 makalye için,
(This issue is very important nowadays. The question is, will the Turkish population accept these people as equal citizens if they come forward? I am very thankful for the articles you sent.)
Hürmetlerle,
Garabet
Sevgili Garabet,
Bu Müslüman Ermenilerin torunları şu anda zaten çoğunlukla Müslümanlığı kabul etmiş, Ermeniceyi ve Ermeni kültürünü unutmuştur buna rağmen Türkiye'de aşırı milliyetçilerin tepkisinden korkuyorlar bence. Fakat Türkiye'de sadece aşırı milliyetçiler yaşamıyor. Aşırı gruplar dışında halk onları olduğu gibi kabul edecektir. Aslında onların bu kimlikle ortaya çıkması milliyetçiliğin de belki rasyonelleşmesini sağlar.
Bir de Alevilerle aynı köylerde yaşayan Ermeniler var...Bazı Alevi köylerinde Ermeni ve Aleviler karışık yaşarken bazı köylerde sadece Ermeniler var ve kendilerini Alevi olarak tanımlıyorlar.
Ermenilerin hepsi 1915 den dolayı Müslüman olmamış. Yüzyıllar boyunca çeşitli nedenlerle İslam'a geçmiş olan Ermeniler var. Bir kısmı ekonomik nedenlerle bir kısmı baskı olduğu zamanlar baskıdan kurtulmak için bir kısmı da İslam'ı beğendiklerinden Müslüman oldular. Bizim bugün Türk dediğimiz ve anadili Türkçe olan insanların kanında Ermenilik ve Rumluk vardır..
Bugün bu konuyu Erzurumlu bir arkadaşımla konuştuk o bana "Bizim köy Türk köyüdür ama etrafındaki köylerin hepsi Ermeni Müslümanların köyü olduğunu söyledi. Onların da köyünde Türklerin sakladığı Ermeni nineler olmuş. O ihtiyarlar din değiştirmeden yaşamış ve ölmüşler. Tıpkı benim babamın köyündeki Gavur Nine gibi...
İşte böyle yine konuşuruz. Selametle
Mehmet
Translation of bolded sections of the letter:
Those people who do not belong to extremist groups will accept them as they are...
And...
There are many Armenians who have converted to Islam or have become Muslims throughout the centuries for doifferent reasons. Some of these converted for economic reasons, while others did so in order to escape oppression when the state oppressed them. There are still others who became Muslims because they liked that religion...
ANSWER TO LETTER 3
Merhabalar Mehmet:
Bu mesele şımdik çok önemli dır. Aceba Türk halkı bunları açıka gelerseylerle kendilerini tüm vatandaş diye kabul edebilecek mı? Çok memnun oldum gönderdiğiniz 2 makalye için,
(This issue is very important nowadays. The question is, will the Turkish population accept these people as equal citizens if they come forward? I am very thankful for the articles you sent.)
Hürmetlerle,
Garabet
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